bende - baseline change proposal request for comment

[Logical Language Group <cbmvax!uunet!GREBYN.COM!cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu!lojbab>]

As I continue to work place structures into shape, there have been
occassional new issues that have come up - places where we could clarify
wording only after figuring out exactly how broad the concept we are
expressing should extend.

One place structure has remained unsettled after a bit of discussion, so
I am putting it to the Lojban List for community input.  The option of
making this one change suggests a related change in another gismu
keyword for clarity.  I want opinions from those who have written in the
language, but also, if possible from some of the lurkers who are less
active contributors.

The main issue concerns "bende", keyword orchestra.  The word is one of
a set of rather specialized words that remained gismu out of our
tradition of minimizing changes to JCB's list (Bruce take note).  Only
the most egregious words of this type were dropped (billiards and
football being the examples that come most to mind), so orchestra
survived.

The issue of the scope of these words was put off at the time - the
words we retained had some considerable potential for metaphorical
extension.  Since then, as with the element words oft discussed, the
acceptability of metaphorical extension into the figurative has
decreased.  Thus it is worth considering making the place structure
more overtly expanded in meaning.

Here is the current word.

bende bed     be'e orchestra            'band'
x1 is an orchestra/band of players x2 conducted/led by x3

One obvious question is whether a band leader is necessary to have a
band.  Probably an orchestra does, but to the vast majority of music
groups performing nowadays have a bandleader/conductor - no.

The answer to this was that any music group without a leader is the
obvious "zgike girzu" - it is only the addition of a leader that makes
the concept enough interesting and different to warrant a gismu with a
distinct place structure.

The next suggestion is that the word be expanded in scope to cover all
kinds of groups with leaders, organized for a specific purpose.  This
fills in neatly against girzu which has no leader, and bilni which is
highly organized and has no leader.

At this point we start having second thoughts about lidne, which as I
announced last week has been modified to a more restricted sense:

lidne   x1 leads/precedes x2 in sequence x3

leaving other aspects of 'leader' to be carried by "ralju" x1 is
chief/principal/leader among x2.  This other sense can cover most
instances of 'leader' adequately, but it seems an unnatural stretch by
my language intuitions.  The metaphorical relation between
leader/follower chief/indian was missing.  It can be expressed weakly in
other gismu - jitro (control over), catni (authority over) turni
(governs).  Until bende came up, we were going to leave it lie.

The suggested place structure to expand bende was written, basically
adding an x4 covering the purpose for which the group was organized.

bende bed     be'e ?                    'band'
  x1 is an team/gang/orchestra/band of persons x2 conducted/led by x3
  organized for purpose x4

This seemed quite satisfying until we tried to deal with a keyword.  We
don't change keywords lightly - that is a baseline change.  But
'orchestra' becomes too limited and misleading a keyword for the
expanded concept.  The original clue word used in the etymology was
"band" but this is ruled out as a misleading keyword - there are too
many meanings for 'band', some of which are covered by other gismu.  I
suggested "team", but this has similar conflicts with "gunma", another
kind of 'team'.  Gang has a pejorative and more limited sense to English
speakers - I can't see people talking about going to see the music-gang
play Beethoven.

Athelstan last night proposed a novel, but more drastic solution.
Switch the place structure around to put the leader up front, since this
is the distinctive feature.  Two possible place structures.  The first
is a simple rearrangement:

bende bed     be'e ?                    'band'
  x1 conducts/leads team/gang/orchestra/band x2 composed of persons x3
  organized for purpose x4

The second version then combines x2 and x3, on the assumption that
individuals in the place would be the old x3, while a team/mass would be
the x2:


bende bed     be'e ?                    'band'
  x1 conducts/leads team/gang/orchestra/band/persons x2 organized for
  purpose x3

This latter place structure would be a mistake.  The semantics of x2
would depend on nature of the value, and that value could be ambiguous
as to whether it is to be considered an individual or a group - the old
dichotomy related to sumti-raising reappears.  (Is "le broda"
individuals like "le prenu", or a mass like "le gunma" or a set like "le
selcmima"?)

But considering this place structure at all brought lidne to mind, since
the old place structure for "lidne" was effectively just that "x1 leads
x2 in doing x3".  When place structure changes converge like that is
suggests that there really is a gismu-level concept there.

That concept is supported by the 4-place version still

bende bed     be'e ?                    'band'
  x1 conducts/leads team/gang/orchestra/band x2 composed of persons x3
  organized for purpose x4

x1 leads/conducts/manages organization x2
x1 leads follower(s) x3

so long as the followers are organized.  If they are not organized, I
suspect that "catni" or "jitro" or even "minde" may suffice.  I'm still
a little unsettled on the leader/follower question, but others may have
some more insight.  What do you-all think?

The problem with either choice is still a keyword.  Neither "orchestra"
nor "band" can be considered if we rearrange the place structure.
Athelstan favors "director", since "leader" is still the keyword for
"lidne".

However, at this point, he suggested that in the context of whatever
change we make to "bende", changing the keyword of "lidne" to "precede"
would be a good idea since it would minimize misuse.  That baseline
change proposal is therefore also put up for comment and likely
adoption.

Thus - summarizing the questions:

1. Should "lidne" be changed to keyword "precede"?

2. Should "bende" be generalized beyond musical groups?

3. Should "bende" be rearranged to put the leader place in x1?

4. What should the keyword be if only 2 is adopted?

5. What should the keyword be if both 2 and 3 are adopted?

6. For those who have written texts in the language, have you made any
usage of bende that would suggest a constraint on the decisions?  Would
any of these changes be helpful/harmful in improving things that you
might want to express?

lojbab