Re: selbri as sumti

[ucleaar <ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk>]

Jorge:
> > >PROBLEM ONE
> > >How can we say "I always do my shopping on the same day of the
> > >week"?
> >        mi klama le zarci ca pa jefydje ca ro jeftu
> I don't see how {pa jefydje} works. I'd have thought that {pa jefydje}
> is the category of Mondays (or Tuesdays, etc.). I don't klama during
> the category of Mondays. I klama during Mondays.
> I was thinking of it as the time encompassed by all days of a given
> kind.

That's okay. I wonder how you'd do "two of the same days of the
week" (put clumsily) - i.e. 2 Mondays, or 2 Tuesdays. Maybe

   re djedi pe xohu pisuho pa jefydje

> But anyway, with your definition:
>        mi klama le zarci ca ro jeftu ca lo mintu jefydje cmima
> {ca lo cmima be lo jefydje poi mintu lei drata}, if you don't want tanru.

I don't see how {mintu lei drata} helps, but I do see how {cmima} helps.

Chris:
>   jefydje:  x1 is the category of all days which are the x2th of the week
>                                they fall in
> We don't appear to have a gismu that relates members to categories, but
> I'll assume for a moment that a category is a kind of set.
> Then we can use lu'a...
>   mi klama le zarci ca ro lu'a pa lo jefydje
> Or cmima...
>   mi klama le zarci ca ro cmima be pa lo jefydje
> Hmmm.. do these work or we still have the problem of the quantification
> of "ro" coming first?
Jorge:
> Yes, I think that is the key issue. As you have them, the category
> is selected for each member separately, so it doesn't give what we
> want. I think
>        mi klama le zarci ca ro cmima be pa mintu jefydje
> should work. The problem has been kicked to the x2 of mintu,
> and to make it explicit, we would need to use the prenex, but
> I believe context does make it clear.

I'll go for
      pa da poi jefydje zohu mi zarci klama ro cmima be da
or,
      mi zarci klama ro cmima be xohu pa jefydje
or,
      mi zarci klama ro luha xohu pa jefydje

Tho it might be objected that a category is not a set, I think
I would prefer to interpret {luha} as neutralizing the distinction,
and favour the last of the three versions.

Jorge:
> > > >PROBLEM TWO
> > > >"I ate a strange kind of fish". What I ate was not strange.
> > >        mi citka le finpe be lo cizra
> > >        mi pu citka lo finpe be lo cizra
> > "Strange kind" doesn't necessarily mean "strange species". Species
> > are not the only kinds. Moreover, your method will not generalize to:
> >    I ate a strange kind of food.
> >    I read a strange kind of book.
>        mi citka lo finpe poi cmima lo cizra
>        mi citka lo cidja poi cmima lo cizra
>        mi tcidu lo selcku poi cmima lo cizra

Still not quite what I want. I want to say that a class that is
pisuho of the class of fish/food/books is strange.

Chris:
> Good point.  Can we use "klesi" for "kind"?
>        mi citka le finpa poi klesi lo cizra

Doesn't say that the fish is a class?

How about:

  mi citka luha lo cizra gihe klesi be ro lohi finpa

- horribly messy.

Jorge:
> > > >PROBLEM THREE
> > > >"Today I performed my quotidian activities":
> > >        ca le cabdei mi ba'o gasnu lei mi roldei selzukte
> > No tanru, please.
>        ca le cabdei mi ba'o gasnu lei mi selzukte poi roldei
> roldei:  x1 is a quotidian activity (i.e. it belongs to that
>  set of quotidian activities that you had defined.)

I will go for:

   ca le cabdei mi baho gasnu luha lo roldei gihe klesi be
      ro lohi selzukte be mi

- again, horribly messy.

Chris:
> >Chris:
> >>        mi ca le cabdei cu gasnu lei se gasnu be ca ro djedi
> And:
> >{se gasnu be ca ro djedi}: It's hard to think of anything that
> >satisfies the predicate Is-an-activity-occurring-every-day. Maybe
> >a team of bridge painters, working 24 hours a day, year after year.
> >Certainly teeth cleaning isn't such an activity: each event of
> >teeth cleaning happens on only one day. Yet it is quotidian.
> I'm not sure I understand.
> "ko'a se gasnu ca ro djedi" is the same as
> "ro djedi zo'u ko'a se gasnu"

I didn't know this. I'd have thought it shd be:

   ro da poi djedi zohu koha se gasnu ca da

> For each day, x, ko'a happens on day x.  That's true of toothbrushing,
> isn't it?  I don't see why ro djedi suggests continuous 24-hour activity
> to you.

No event of me brushing my teeth happens every day.
But every day there is an event of me brushing my teeth.

  true:  ca ro djedi ku da nu mi denjisygau
  false: da nu mi denjisygau kei caku ro djedi

> >Perhaps {mi ca le cabdei cu gasnu pisuho lei se gasnu be mi beho
> >noi cabna ro djedi} is a workaround. But not the sort of solution
> >I'm seeking.
> Why is "noi cabna ro djedi" different from "be ca ro djedi be'o"?

Because in my version it is the mass of se gasnu that is spread over
all days, whereas in yours each se gasnu is spread over all days.

---
And