Re: knowledge and belief

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

>>    la stivn cu djuno le du'u la xorxes cu djuno le du'u makau klama le
zarci
>>    Steven knows that Jorge knows who it is that goes to the market.
>
 > I'm curious why you chose to use le du'u makau
>instead of le nu makau.

The x2 of djuno has to be a du'u. You know a fact about something, you
can't know an event about something. The x3 can be an event, though.
You can know some fact about an event, for example that it happenned.

>>            mi krici le du'u makau klama le zarci
>>            I have a belief as to who it is that goes to the market.
 >
>I believe I know who goes to market
>I think I know who goes to market.
>I am sure I know who goes to market.
>
>is the idiomatic way of saying this; in this case the know seems to be a
>sort of "placeholder" for unwinding the indirect reference.

Right. But I'm not sure it always works. For example:

        la djan jinvi le du'u makau klama le zarci
        John has an opinion as to who goes to the market.
        John thinks he knows who goes to the market.

The second one suggests to me that I think that John is mistaken.

>However, one
>could give the examples
>
>I know who goes to market.
>I know I know who goes to market.
>
>These seem to have very similar meanings, unless you take the second being
>as being a deliberately metareferential statement.

I agree.

>What are your thoughts on
>
><la xorxes cu djuno le du'u la stivn cu djuno>

Seems fine to me. For example:

    mi djuno le du'u la stivn djuno le du'u makau cmene mi
    I know that Steven knows what is my name.

>Assuming for purposes of discussion that there is no prior textual source
>of a schema for the x4 place, does this statement imply telepathy to you
>(as I suggested in an earlier post), or would you suggest that some other
>schema is operant? (i.e., "seeing is believing", "Steven says he knows, so
>that is adequate for me to know that he knows.)

It doesn't imply telepathy to me. I have enough evidence to know that you
know what is my name. I think that {djuno} has about the same use as
English "know". (In its meaning of knowing a fact, of course, not
in the meaning of being familiar with someone or something, as in
"I know John", nor in its biblical {gletu} meaning.) But I don't really know
how to fill the x4 place. {le nu viska}, {le nu jinvi} and other events like
those don't seem to me to be epistemologies. I don't quite know what
an epistemology is. I would not use {djuno} as lojbab says he would.
For example, I find {le mi bersa cu djuno le du'u la santas cu zasti} as
odd as the English version "my son knows that Santa exists" said by
someone who doesn't believe that Santa exists.

co'o mi'e xorxes