Re: Summary so far on DJUNO

[Goran Topic <amadan@USA.NET>]

Rant. Mostly in English. Translation does not follow.

> >> i le cusku ka'e stace cusku lu de djuno da li'u nagi'a jinvi da
> >> i ku'i le du'u le cusku jinvi da na banzu le du'u cy ka'e stace cusku ly
> >
> >.i .ie lejei da se jinvi cy. .e ji'a de cu dunli lejei cy. ka'e stace
> >cusku ly.
> >.i xagmau xu
>
> i go'i i ku'i na prane  i le nu stace cusku ly cu sarcu ji'a le nu

.i lu se sarcu li'u xu

> cy jinvi le du'u de jinvi da  i va'i lu de djuno da li'u dunli
> lu de jinvi da noi jetnu li'u le ka smuni  i seki'ubo cy ka'e sacysku
> lu de djuno da li'u gi'o jinvi da e le du'u de jinvi da

.ie bau la gliban.

>  >> >.i loi mipxu'a cu pe'i so'omei la lojban. fi'o te kabri lo rarbau
> >>
> >> i le se xusra pe zo djuno na se mipri
> >
> >.i la'ezoi gy. presupposition .gy. cu smuni le lujvo .imu'ibo na'e ke
> >ralju bridi ke'e xusra .i va'o lenu do finti lo xagmau lujvo kei ko
> >benji .i pu'o la'edi'u mi ralte tu'a zo mipxu'a
>
> i pe'ipei va'o le nu mi cusku lu ta mlatu li'u kei mi mipxu'a
> le du'u ta danlu i le du'u lei se djuno cu jetnu cu panra le du'u
> lei mlatu cu danlu i xu lei me di'u se mipxu'a cu ca'a so'omei

I'll switch to English, since I don't think I could pull this off in
lojban. I'm in the middle of reading John Lyons, studying for my
semantics exam, so I feel, I don't know, y., inspired. The difference
is, I think, that the animalhood is a natural necessity for mlatu;
something I don't feel for djuno. Purely subjective, of course, but is
it not valid means of semantic research? Even if it isn't so, I don't
see the problem.

1. mlatu is defined as a feline animal in gi'uste. By analitic
entailment, it is a cat (Every feline animal is an animal).
2. Knowing that gi'uste need not be authoritative, we can say, okay,
animalhood is not a central meaning component of mlatu. So what? It
isn't in English, either. Then "rokci cinfo" could make sense after all
- *if* we agree that animalhood is not analytically entailed by mlatu
(and likewise for any of the other characteristic meaning components
that hinge on it being animate, like mice-hunting, or playfulness, or
being a carnivore - practically leaving us only with physical form), or
cinfo. i.e. mlatu = x1 is shaped like a cat of species/breed x2. *If* we
agree. Of course, we could go on questioning if even an animal needs to
be animate, if we could say rokci danlu obeying the spirit of lojban,
and not meaning a mountain goat at that (you know what I'm talking
about: the rock statue depicting an animal). And even whether a
hypothetic eternal being that does not reproduce nor move nor feed could
be called animate; and probably ad infinitum.
3. I like the idea of bridi expressing a relationship between its sumti.
I believe the less I deviate from that, the better. I might not be
right. I also like the that in lojban one can control what he says, and
how much he says. You don't want to make number explicit? OK, number is
optional. You don't want to decide when has something happened, if it
even has yet? No problem, tense is optional, too. Also, if I want to
include my judgement about the truth in other people's convictions, I
can always tanru it with mibyseltu'i or jetnu (with implied "tu'a mi" in
x3) or whatever. Again, since this is a constructed language, we can fix
whatever we like as meaning of specific words (did you read "The Meaning
of Liff"?), but (mainly) for the reasons stated above I like and's
definition, the one I believe lojbab. basically agrees with, even if it
does significantly differ from English usage (as well as that of any
other natural language I know).

> >> >.i lo bridi smuni cu selbai .ei loi tersu'i
> >>
> >> i po'opei loi tersu'i  i xu na go'i le selbri
> >
> >.i nai .i ja'ago'i ji'e
>
> i li'a i le du'u le se djuno cu jetnu cu pagbu
> le smuni be zo djuno pa'a le du'u le du'u le mlatu
> cu danlu cu pagbu le smuni be zo mlatu

.i na go'i ke'u ke'u
.i le du'u la'e zoi gy. known .gy. cu jetnu cu pagbu le smuni be zoi gy.
know .gy.
.i ledu'u makau smuni le lojbo panra be ri cu cabnabmi

co'o mi'e. goran.