Re: TECH: muvdu place structure

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

> I've looked over muvdu, and am inclined to make it intransitive, along
> with other gismu that I find that are unnecessarily transitive (see
> other posting on jarco).

Good.

> However there was another distinction embedded in muvdu that was not in
> other words of motion. benji is transmission that need not necessarily
> alienate the thing transmitted from the originator (e.g. information)
> muvdu was intended to indicate a relocation that necessarily implied
> alienation.

I believe that "muvdu" should retain the notion of alienation.  "benji"
can be used for either actual movement or else copying -- and copying
requires a copier (yes, I know about DNA, but I don't see a problem with
"agentifying" the stuff: there are copier enzymes, after all).

This makes "muvgau" the exact analogue of "benji", with the same place
structure, but representing alienating rather than non-alienating change
of location.

> And a problem I was alrady unsettled about:  how do we express motions
> of parts of an object, either transitive or intransitive; e.g.  "He
> lifted his arm".  "The arm of the apparatus moved through a 90 degree
> arc." as expressions of "the man moves" and "the apparatus moves".  i.e.
> If the man lifts his arm or it raises on its own for some reason, we can
> say that "the man moves", but the man doesn't move from/to anywhere.

We think smarter, is what we do.  We may say "the man moves" in English,
but we don't say "le nanmu cu muvdu" in Lojban.  It is "le birka be le nanmu
cu muvdu".

(There is a joke about a man whose English is none too good going to a doctor,
complaining of constipation.  The doctor administers a laxative and tells
the man "If you haven't moved [i.e. your bowels] by tomorrow, come back."
This is repeated for several days, with the doctor giving higher and higher
doses.  Finally, the doctor says in exasperation, "You mean you haven't
moved yet?!"  The man replies "No, move tomorrow.  House full of shit.")

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.